A Christian Woman Joins the Conversation

A Muslim scholar begins a discussion with an Orthodox Christian woman. The scholar first establishes the context by asking directly: "You said you are not Muslim, correct?" She confirms this and identifies herself: "I am an Orthodox Christian." The scholar then invites her to share what is on her mind, noting that she can speak freely and that her identity will remain anonymous. The woman admits feeling some nervousness, but the scholar reassures her, explaining that there is nothing to worry about given the confidentiality of the conversation.

The Question of the Church's Establishment

The woman explains that she has been watching the scholar's videos and looking into different matters, and what troubles her most is a specific biblical claim. She says: "When I read the Christian book, it says that Jesus founded the Church, and of course the Church is not currently in Islam. It says that the gates of Hell will never prevail against the Church. So I wonder: what happened to the Church? I don't know if this question is logical."

The scholar responds by asking for clarification about what she means by "the Church" and which text she is referring to. He asks whether she thinks Jesus literally built a physical building called a church. She says no, and the scholar probes further: "Then what did he mean by the Church?" The woman references the passage where Jesus asks Peter: "Who do you say that I am?" Peter responds: "You are the Messiah," and Jesus then says: "On this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:15–18).

The scholar clarifies the question: "What did Jesus mean by the Church? Do you think he meant he would build a church building?" The woman reflects: "I think he meant a community of believers." The scholar agrees this is a different understanding altogether from what most people mean by the Church today. He notes that everything depends on what Jesus intended by the word, and that only the Catholics assign particular weight to this text. They use it to claim that Peter was the first Pope and to legitimize the Church's authority.

The Circular Logic of Catholic Authority

The scholar explains that the entire Catholic argument is built on this one text. However, he argues, this text certainly does not refer to a building with a priest who forgives sins and all those teachings that Catholics have invented and fabricated. Jesus did not intend the Church to be understood that way. If he had, he would have built a building himself, and that would be the first Church in Christian history today. But that is not what he meant. The woman notes that despite this, the idea seems self-contradictory.

The scholar emphasizes: "I believe Catholicism contradicts itself. When you ask them why they rely on the Church, they say they rely on the Church because of the Christian book. When you ask them why they rely on the Christian book, they say they rely on the Christian book because of the Church." This is circular reasoning. You cannot continue spinning in circles because this is a logical fallacy. Instead, you must prove both independently. You must establish that the Christian book is reliable on its own, and only then can you say you rely on the Church because of the Christian book. But if that is not proven, then you cannot say: "I believe in the Christian book because of the Church, and I believe in the Church because of the Christian book." This is circular reasoning—you are going in circles in an empty loop and have not proven either one.

The scholar concludes: "I believe this is the biggest contradiction in Catholicism."

Understanding Jesus and His Nature

The scholar shifts the conversation: "My question for you now is this: regardless of what Jesus said, because this text is not important to me at all—everything depends on what he intended by the Church. Did he mean a community of believers? Or did he mean faith itself? What did he mean?" The woman agrees: "Well, he certainly was not referring to that building that was built later." The scholar responds: "Yes. Now the question is: why do you believe the Christian book is reliable? You, yourself, today?"

The woman explains: "I think it is because it seems to answer many questions about Jesus and why he came, in the New Testament anyway." The scholar presses: "How does answering questions make the Christian book reliable?" The woman pauses: "I think that alone is not sufficient."

The scholar then asks directly: "What do you believe about Jesus?" She responds: "I believe that Jesus was created by God." The scholar asks: "So he was not God?" She clarifies: "God the Father? No, not at all. There is only one God. The Christian book says: 'Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God is one Lord' (Deuteronomy 6:4). There is only one God. The idea of God the Son and God this and God that—these are not teachings of the Christian book. There is no 'God the Son' in the Christian book. You will never find this term or this idea. This is a fabricated idea. So when we speak of God, there is only one—from the time of Abraham and Moses and Adam, there was always one God, always the same God."

The scholar affirms: "Yes, exactly. The one God you say created Jesus is the only one capable of creating people. He is God. God is the Creator. When we speak of absolute creation, we mean creation from nothing. Humans can create and transform one shape into another, but we are talking about absolute creation—from non-existence into existence. Only God is capable of that." The woman agrees: "So when you say Jesus is a creation of God, then he is not God."

The scholar nods: "Yes. So he was a messenger of God, and God sent him to his people to teach them good character, the way of life, and dealings between people, marriage laws, and so on. And he was also the Messiah, meaning he was anointed—God chose him. He fulfilled his mission when he came and conveyed the message that the people needed. And he will return in the Second Coming to kill the False Messiah, which is another task God has assigned him. But in that regard, he is like Moses, David, Solomon, and other messengers."

The Question of Jesus's Miraculous Birth

The woman interjects: "The strange thing is that all these things you are saying seem logical to my mind, but I always wonder: why the miraculous birth? Because it seems to me that he is distinguished from other prophets, and I wonder why—if the answer is not the Christian explanation, then what is it?"

The scholar responds: "I understand your point, but here is the matter: every prophet and messenger was distinguished by a miracle unlike any other. Was there anyone else who split the sea—the Red Sea or any other sea? No one else. Was there anyone else who was thrown into fire and did not die? Each prophet and messenger had a miracle unique to them. They did not all perform the same miracles and deeds. God gives each prophet and messenger a miracle that distinguishes him from others. Among these, one thing that distinguished Jesus was the matter of his birth from a virgin. But the question is: Jesus had a mother, do you agree?" She says yes. "And she was Mary, correct?" Yes. "And what about the one who had no mother and no father? Is that not greater?"

The woman exclaims: "I think so!"

The scholar asks: "Well, who had no mother and no father?" She hesitates: "Besides God, I do not know anyone." The scholar replies: "Adam! God created him directly. So why would he not be God?" She says: "Because he is not, and he did not create anything. We are talking about distinction now. Just because someone is distinguished in something does not make them God."

The scholar continues: "In fact, he was even more distinguished than Jesus in this regard. And not only him, but there are people who were not even prophets or anything like that, such as Melchizedek, mentioned in the Christian book, which says: 'Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life' (Hebrews 7:3). This is what the Christian book says. He was contemporary with Abraham, according to the Christian book, by the way. These are the teachings of the Christian book. So the idea that Jesus being without a father proves he is unique in this way—know that there are people more unique in this way, if we want to talk about birth and fathers and so on. There are people more unique."

The woman responds: "That is logical!"

The scholar continues: "Yes, yes. So what makes Jesus different now from any other messenger? He was distinguished by miracles, and they were distinguished by miracles. What makes him different from other messengers?" The woman says: "I do not know. That is what I mean. There is nothing, and that is what Muslims say. Instead of focusing on people whom God created—as you have admitted that Jesus is a creation of God—let us focus on the Creator."

Jesus's Role as Teacher and Messenger

The scholar poses a crucial question: "Was Jesus here to introduce us to himself or to God? Did he go around telling people: 'Worship me, learn about me, write about me, pray to me'? Were these his teachings? Or was he telling people: 'Pray to God the Father alone, worship Him alone, associate nothing with Him, come to know God, learn about God, this is your God, and act according to His will'? Was that what he was saying? Was he talking about himself or about God?"

The woman reflects: "The things I have always read are: 'I can do nothing by myself' (John 5:30) and 'My God and your God' (John 20:17). So it seems he was always pointing to God."

The scholar affirms: "Yes. So if he was always directing people to God and not to himself, and clearly he did not call anyone to worship him, and he did not teach anyone about the Trinity, and he did not teach anyone that the Church is a building with a priest that you must follow, and there is someone called the Pope who is infallible, and all those things they do with children and so on—we will not get into that—then all of this has nothing to do with Jesus and his teachings. These are all things that appeared later, invented and fabricated by people."

The crucial point is: "What you believe now—what is the difference between what you believe and what we have just agreed on and what Muslims believe? Because what you believe is not what Christians believe. Christians do not believe these things, certainly not! If you went to the church, they would tell you: you are not one of us. And they would say to you: what do you mean by saying Jesus is a creation of God? And I am sure you agree with me. If you tried to go to the church—I go every week. I am very active. Most of the time I go twice a week."

The Gap Between Jesus and Muhammad

The woman then asks: "The other question I have is: what happened after Jesus until the time of Muhammad? What happened after Jesus? There is always a gap between the prophets and messengers."

The scholar responds: "You can ask the same question: what happened after Moses until the next prophet? And what happened after that prophet until the one after him? And what happened from the time of Noah until the time of Abraham? And what happened from the time of Abraham until the time of Solomon? You can ask the same question about any prophet and messenger. The prophets came at different times. They did not all come at the same time. God sends them when the message of truth has been lost and corrupted and is no longer clear to the people. God then sends another prophet and messenger to clarify and bring people back to the truth."

The scholar continues: "When Jesus was raised up, the truth remained. His teachings, which connected people to God—and that is the important part—were present. The people were implementing the teachings he had told them. Until the Roman Empire adopted Christianity, and then they started introducing all those things: the Trinity, the hypostatic union, councils later, the two natures of Jesus such that Jesus is the eternally begotten Son, and all those illogical things. They were all introduced later, and none of them were there before. If you look at the earliest communities that followed Jesus, they were monotheists. They believed that Jesus was a prophet and a messenger of God, like the Ebionites and the Nazarenes. This type of community was among the earliest, and they believed that Jesus was a messenger of God. They did not believe he was God or the Trinity or God incarnate or any of those things."

The Weight of Religious Tradition

The woman expresses her internal struggle: "I think the situation is difficult for me regarding my position, because you always hear these things, and it is hard for you to express your feeling, even if you are right. No one wants to be wrong. You do not want to make a wrong decision. You do not want to be mistaken. You do not want to do the wrong thing from either side."

She continues: "Something else—I have not read the entire Qur'an. I have read some of it, and this statement of mine will seem... I do not know, maybe this is not the best way to express what I am about to say. But it is easier to understand the God being promoted in Christianity compared to Islam. I think it is harder to see God this way. Are you talking about connection? Is that what you mean?" The scholar asks for clarification.

The woman elaborates: "No, not necessarily connection, but just what He wants from us and how He sees us. It seems almost frightening to me. Tell me now, from your understanding—through your understanding of Islam, what does God want from people? And in comparison, you said it is easier to understand what God wants from you in Christianity, so give me the comparison now. Why do you think it is easier? Give me the difference between the two."

God's Will in Christianity and Islam

The scholar responds: "It seems that in Christianity, simply, the goal is to be like Jesus and to love as he loves. You cannot live your life exactly as he lived his life, but you try to adopt his characteristics. And in Islam, you are not sure, and you know that you are supposed to worship God. But there are other things that seem frightening, like fighting people."

The scholar then challenges her: "Have you read the Christian book? Are you sure?" She replies: "I know that the Old Testament has a lot of that." The scholar states: "If you want to talk about fighting and aggression and so on, the Christian book—there is no comparison between Islam and the Christian book. The Christian book surpasses all books when it comes to these things, compared to religions that are connected to Abraham."

The woman agrees: "That is true!"

The scholar continues: "What Christians do is they turn a blind eye to the Old Testament: 'No, that is the old covenant!' But is it the same God or a different God who gave these commands?" The woman responds: "I think that is what confuses me, because it seems... the God does not change and remains in His nature. He will not be one way in one period and then change in a later period."

The scholar affirms: "Of course!"

The Problem of Violent Commands in Scripture

The woman continues: "But the way this was explained to me when I asked this question was that these things had a need in that time, but once Jesus came, I think those behaviors or wars were no longer needed. Was there a need in that time to dash children against rocks?" (Psalms 137:9) "I do not think God commanded people to do that, but people did those things."

The scholar responds firmly: "No, these are commandments in Deuteronomy and other parts of the Christian book. When they are mentioned as commandments, they are commandments from God for people to carry out. This is the law that was implemented in that land, and its source is God according to their claim—not just the words of people, but from the texts of the book. Do not Christians believe that this is the word of God? So who gave these commandments?"

The woman says: "I have always thought and been told that the events of the Old Testament are historical events and not necessarily commands from God."

The scholar presses: "But they are events, not actions of people from God's commands?" She hesitates: "Well, have you read it yourself? That is my question. Because the Christian book says God commanded them, and it does not say they are the words of people. It says directly that they are from God's commands. It says: 'This is what God commanded.' For example, you can open the Christian book if you have it now. Open 1 Samuel, Chapter 15, Verse 3, where he commands killing children, infants, and livestock, and it says it is a command from God. Now God, your Lord, says: 'Do such and such,' and it has nothing to do with people. It is a direct command from God."

The woman listens but interjects: "But I told you: this is what Christians do. They ignore the parts they do not like, and then they try to live in a house of glass and criticize Islam because it has such and such..."

The scholar cuts in: "Verse about war—war! And he speaks about sparing people who ask for protection (Qur'an 9:6), and he speaks about not wronging them. He forbade killing women, children, laborers, monks, and priests. He forbade mutilating corpses. He forbade killing livestock or animals or destroying places of worship. These are the rules of just war that the Prophet himself instructed. When the Caliphs appointed commanders over armies, they would teach them the rules of engagement in war. We are not talking about daily life; we are talking about prohibitions on things in war. Now compare that to Christianity, which has explicit texts that they claim are from God commanding you to kill children and infants, and that slaves are property (Leviticus 25:44–45), and all those things that I do not need to go into. But the point is: give me the most frightening verse you have found in the Qur'an. Go ahead and tell me about it, and let us discuss it. I will show you that there is nothing of that kind in the Qur'an. You said you are reading it, so give me the most shocking verse. Go ahead."

The woman responds: "I think it is the verse that says: 'Kill the disbelievers wherever you find them.' I do not remember it exactly as it is, but it has to do with disbelievers."

The scholar identifies it precisely: "You are quoting Verse 5 from Chapter 9 (Surah At-Taubah) specifically. Do you have the Qur'an now?" She says maybe she can get it. The scholar suggests: "Yes, bring it. No problem. Let us read those verses first. Start with Verse 5 only so you can confirm that it is the verse you referred to."

The woman reads: "Surah 9, Verse 5."

The scholar prompts: "Surah 9, Verse 5. Go ahead: 'So when the sacred months have passed away...'"

The woman reads: "'So when the sacred months have passed away, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them' (Qur'an 9:5)."

The scholar asks: "Is this the verse you wanted?"

She confirms: "Yes."

Understanding Context in the Qur'an

The scholar says: "Well, let us read from the first verse, and let us start from the context. What does the first verse say?"

The woman reads: "'Disavowal from Allah and His messenger to those who have made covenant with you from the polytheists' (Qur'an 9:1). God is disavowed from the polytheists who broke the covenant. And this is the first verse."

The scholar explains: "Now, the first verse gives us the historical context. It says there is a treaty between the believers and the disbelievers. They broke the treaty. This is how Verse 5 becomes logical, because it begins with 'when the sacred months have passed away.' God has given them a respite—if you read the verses before it—to leave the land. God commanded them to leave the land or they would be killed if they did not leave the land. They broke the treaty, and God did not punish them immediately; He gave them a respite to leave.

You can read the verses before it, and not only that, let us now read Verse 6."

The scholar is preparing to show how the Qur'anic verses about fighting are contextual, limited to specific situations with broken treaties and clear historical circumstances, standing in contrast to the unconditional commands to commit violence found in the Christian scripture that the woman had referenced.

Protection for Polytheists Who Seek Asylum

We have not yet completed our reading. Let us read verse 6: "And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection, then grant him protection until he hears the words of Allah" (9:6). Imagine that one of the polytheists asks you to protect him and seeks your asylum, requesting safety from you during warfare — and this is our subject — after Allah has warned them and they have not left the land, and later, after those months have passed, you find one of them seeking your protection. What do you do? Allah says: "Grant him protection" — and it is not only this — "until he hears the words of Allah, then let him reach his place of safety" (9:6). Then? Complete the verse: after hearing the words of Allah, then what? "Then let him reach his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know" (9:6). Imagine: we are in warfare now, we are fighting. You have broken the covenant, and first and second: Allah gave you a time period to leave, but you did not leave, and we came and found you, so you sought protection. And Allah said: "Grant him protection" — and it is not only this — "until he hears the words of Allah, then let him reach his place of safety." During the war, you ensure he reaches his place of safety. Is this all? No, we have not yet finished. Let us move to verse 13 now, and the Qur'an will tell you about the type of people being referred to here.

Verse 13 states: "Will you not fight against a people who have broken their oaths and intended to expel the Messenger?" Step by step. First, He mentions those who broke the covenant, as we said. So first: the people whom Allah speaks about fighting or killing, and so on. First, what did they do? They broke the covenant. And second, what did they do? They intended to expel the Messenger — they were trying to expel the Prophet from his place and attempted to attack him. Then after that? "And they attacked you first" (9:13) — they initiated aggression against the Muslims!

The Context of Divine Permission for War

Now, after I have said all of this: a group of people broke their covenant and began attacking the Muslims first, and they intended to expel the Messenger of Allah ﷺ. Yet Allah did not punish them immediately; rather, He gave them a reprieve so they could leave. But they did not leave. And despite the fact that they did not leave, if you were to find them during warfare, you would grant them protection — and not only that, you would ensure they reach their place of safety, away from the war. Now, tell me: how can I read this verse now and then claim there are problems in it? It looks different when you place it in its context — and the context is the verses. I have not cited any external source; I have only read from the beginning and some verses after it, and that is all. We simply place matters in their context now. Let us compare that with the First Book of Samuel. Let us open the Christians' book now and compare directly. Let us open the Christians' book now. I cannot open it because what I have with me now is only the New Testament. Do you have only the New Testament? But we are fond of the Old Testament!

The Book of Samuel and Divine Command for Total War

The First Book of Samuel. I will open it here, and then we can read it. I will read it from here. This is the New International Version (NIV). First Book of Samuel, Chapter 15, titled: "The Lord Rejects Saul as King." It says: "And Samuel said to Saul, 'I am the one the Lord sent to anoint you as king over Israel. Now listen to the message of the Lord.' Who's message? The Lord's. So this is not talking about what people said at that time, or their culture, or history. This is the word of God. 'This is what the Lord of Hosts says: I am about to punish the Amalekites for what they did to the Israelites when they attacked them on the road as they were coming out of Egypt.'"

And this happened 400 years before this event mentioned here — 400 years before. The Amalekites expelled the Israelites from Egypt and killed them and persecuted them. This happened 400 years ago, generations ago. Now the God — according to their claim — says: "Go now and attack the Amalekites and destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare anyone." "Rather, kill them all: men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys." Yes? So when we talk about context here — because we resorted to context in the Qur'an — and now we define context in the Christians' book, what is the context? The context is that a people 400 years ago expelled the Israelites from their land, and now, after 400 years... Imagine we were born today, or a better example is the Germans. Now people want to completely annihilate the Germans because of what a well-known person did in history. Let us suppose he did this hundreds of years ago, and now we will annihilate the entire German people because of their ancestors' actions. How is that ethical in any way? And this is the context now, and the context makes things even worse. This is true. Imagine being slaughtered because of something that happened 400 years ago. Now, do not only imagine that — imagine that, furthermore, they did not content themselves with only killing adult males, but they slaughtered women and infants still nursing, children ranging from one to two years old. Children! They slaughtered them even though they could not comprehend what was happening around them. And it is not only that — what is the fault of the camels and sheep and donkeys? So that is my question. The ancestors of the people did what they did, but what is the fault of the donkeys and sheep and camels? So that is an honest question from me. What does their involvement have to do with this situation?

No one can read the Qur'an — and I say this with respect for any Christian — and then claim there is violence in the Qur'an while reading the Qur'an within its context and be honest, and then claim to be a Christian whose book is all peace and love and embrace. There is no such thing. This is true. Even in the New Testament, you will find things of this kind. You will find that Jesus says: "Honor your father and mother, and whoever insults his father or mother will be put to death" (Matthew 15:4). And he did not hate his father and mother but hated his very self also. And you will find in the Second Coming at the end of the Gospel of Luke, for example, where He will make everyone a footstool for his feet, and so on (Luke 20:43). They will tell you that that is a metaphor. Well, a metaphor — why? Will he pat them on the shoulders? That is a metaphor for what he will do to them during the Second Coming!

So in the end, not everything is love and rainbows, as people try to portray it, whether the New Testament or the Old. You said that following the Christians' book means following Jesus or the message of the Christians' book. The Qur'an teaches us to follow the message of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ. It says: "Indeed, in the Messenger of Allah, you have an excellent example for those who hope for Allah and the Last Day" (33:21). So we have an exemplar, and he used to apply the Qur'an in his life and implement Allah's commands, and we must emulate him to the best of our ability. However, we do not focus on him as the Christians do. We learn from and emulate the Prophet ﷺ so that we may worship Allah. The goal is God, and our ultimate focus is on God. The message of Islam is at its simplest: obey the commands of the Qur'an as the Prophet ﷺ did, attempt to emulate him, and obey the teachings of the Qur'an. This life is a test. If you exert your utmost effort and Allah sees you, and you die while fulfilling your duty to Allah, you will enter Paradise.

Comparing Theological Clarity: Christianity's Trinity Versus Islam's Monotheism

Now, if we were to make a comparison in Christianity, you mentioned the issue of confusion. God: the Son is the Son, and the Father is the Father, and the Holy Spirit, and we do not know whether they are the same or not. God sent himself to the world, then killed himself, then forgave people after he killed himself. Then he forgave people because he killed himself. And God became a child, but he was not God — rather, he was a man. But he was a man, but he was also God. So when he did not know something, he was a man, but when he knew, he was God. If we want to talk about contradictions and confusion! And three is not three; rather, in reality, it is one. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit, but they are in reality one. But they are not one — rather, three. So are they one or three?

If we want to talk about confusion and the issue of the message and so on, frankly, there is no confusion greater than the doctrines of Christianity, and it is the most confusing. And the challenge I present is very simple. I might even conduct a social experiment someday. If I ask every Christian on the street, "What is the Trinity?" — each one of them will give me a different answer. A different answer from each Christian individually. And I invite people to conduct this social experiment about the Trinity. Ask any Muslim about God, and they will give you the same answer. God is Allah, the One, the Creator. Unanimously, they will all give you the same answer. And there is no confusion about who God is, what He wants, what you must do, and what you must avoid. There is no greater confusion than the teachings of Christianity about what people must do and what they must avoid, and which book should you read in the first place? You do not know!

And which version do you read? We are now reading from the NIV, and if we opened another version, we would find different wording. Yes, I usually read the New King James Version (NKJV). Yes, yes, so that is what it is about. You said that you read the Qur'an. When you read the Qur'an, you will find that its message is simple. God commands you to worship Him and obey Him, do good in this world, and emulate the Prophet. Do good to the best of your ability, and Allah will enter you into Paradise by His mercy — not by virtue of your deeds, because there is no deed that will enter you into Paradise, because you will always be in debt to God for your very existence in this life. You are already in debt, and every time you breathe, you are in debt. But what is important is that you exert your utmost effort. If you exert your utmost effort, God will see good in you and will encompass you with His mercy, and thus you will enter Paradise. Forgive me — my throat seized up. So this is logical, but it is only difficult! I know, I know, as you said: no one wants to be wrong. As you said, your situation is difficult because you go to church every week and so on, and then you want to change, and there is society around you. So you start thinking about all these different things. But what is important is that the truth is clear, sister. And as you have seen, it did not take me much time to show you the truth, because the truth is as clear as the sun and very simple. Now, the question is: will we follow the truth that is from God? Or will we make worldly matters an obstacle to following it? Because if God is on my side and is my support, then I do not need anything else. That is what is important.

What is important is that I do this for God. God commanded me to follow Him and obey Him. Yes, I will do it. The message of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ is the same message as every messenger who was sent, and there is no difference between them. Jesus's message is the same as the message of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ. When Jesus said: "Shema Yisrael, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai Echad" (Mark 12:29) ("Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One") — he said that, and the Prophet ﷺ said: "Say, 'He is Allah, [who is] One'" (112:1). It is the exact same thing. When Jesus said, "Love your neighbor" (Matthew 22:39), the Prophet ﷺ said the same thing. When Jesus said, "Give alms" (Luke 6:30), the Prophet ﷺ said the same thing. When Jesus fasted (Matthew 4:2), the Prophet ﷺ said the same thing. When Jesus prayed to God prostrate (Matthew 26:39), the Prophet ﷺ said the same thing. So the message of all the prophets is the same.

But the message of the Church and the Trinity and so on — none of the prophets came with that, and they did not know about it or hear about it, because the Church invented it later. You will not find a single messenger who came with the Trinity — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three in one, in four. None of them brought these things. I think I have something else, unless I have taken too much of your time, in which case I believe I have. No, no, it is fine. Please continue. I believe the other thing is miracles. There are saints who died and myrrh gushed from their bones, and I have some of that myrrh, and there are other things that happened that made me feel that Christianity is the truth because of the miracles surrounding it.

The Question of Miracles as Evidence for Faith

Would you tell me of one miracle that proves that Christianity is the truth? The myrrh that gushes from the bones of the saints after their death — have you seen that? I have myrrh, but I have not seen that myself. But I have seen a statue cry before. No, no, what can we see, you and I, now as evidence of the truth of Christianity? Because these stories exist in every religion, by the way. If I brought you a Hindu now, they would tell you the best stories that would astound you about their gods and so on. Storytelling is easy now. What evidence can you show me now as proof of the truth of Christianity? Give me just one piece of evidence. I will not ask much of you. I ask you for just one thing that proves Christianity is the truth. One piece of evidence. I cannot say that this is proof of the truth of Christianity as a whole, but I saw a crying icon, other than personal experiences, because every Christian comes to me with the same story: I was depressed, drunk, and while I was sleeping one day... No, not that kind. No, no, but I am talking about personal experiences. Is the statue crying not a personal experience? No, no, personal experience means something you experienced yourself, and which I cannot see today. If I ask for evidence so I can see it, then it is not objective, applicable to everyone. It is something you happened to encounter at some point. For example, if I came to you and said: when I was in Medina — and I was there last year — when I was in Medina, the Prophet ﷺ came out of his grave and shook my hand and embraced me and told me: you will enter Paradise after your death and you will be with me in the Highest Paradise and you will marry a beautiful woman and so on. Then you say to me: but, but... And I say to you: do you doubt my personal experience now? I was in Medina last year!

I did not experience such a thing. So that is personal. I ask you for evidence of the truth of Christian belief and religion so that people can see it and notice it and embrace it and then follow its teachings. The answer is "no," by the way! But in case you do have evidence, I would be happy to hear it. I do not know; the only thing I can think of is the statues that myrrh flows from and things of that kind. I will ask you a direct question: if you stopped someone on the street and told them: I have evidence that Christianity is the truth, then told them about this statue, do you think they would be convinced? And would they convert to Christianity? If they do not see it themselves, no! Yes, and can you show it to them if they want to see it today? You have to find its location, because it keeps changing its location, and if they want to see it, they can. Yes, yes, but that is exactly what I mean. If it keeps changing its location, then you cannot specify a place for them to see it. And also, this statue — how does it prove the truth of Christianity? And that is my question. Does the statue say that Jesus is God and the Trinity is true and follow the Christians' book? How is that related to Christianity? Because it is a Christian icon of Mary and Jesus. Of Mary and Jesus!

And what does the statue do? It cries. Myrrh flows from the eye, perhaps, and I do not know its source, but it is there. Is it water dripping? No, rather myrrh, and it is a type of oil. A liquid. Yes, with a sweet fragrance. Can I break the statue to check whether there is a tube coming from it that the oil comes from, or will they kill me if I try? Ah, would that be likely? Let us suppose. How easy is it to demolish this miracle? Is it possible that someone placed a tube or something in the eye opening and oil comes from it, or in some part of the statue, and then oil comes from it when people are there? When I saw it, it did not seem that would be possible. But it must be hidden; otherwise, people would see it, right? The hole or the place where the oil comes from, and so on. Can I do that or not? Probably!

Frankly, I want you to think about these things. Will I really become a Christian because of oil flowing from a statue that I saw one day? Will this really convince me to embrace a religion and follow it? No, just that — well, then what is the other thing that would prove it? Because when I say evidence, it must be something miraculous that proves the truth of that religion without any doubt. I do not know if there is evidence to prove the truth of anything without any doubt, otherwise everyone would believe it. So I think all religions are similar. No, but that is what Christians think, and that is what they are told. But Muslims say: we have many types of evidence. If you look at the life of the Prophet ﷺ and the information in the Qur'an, it is ahead of its time — these are things the Prophet ﷺ could not have known and described, whether, first, the Prophet ﷺ describes what we see today in reality, or whether it was the natural world. For example, the Qur'an talks about the universe, planets, stars, galaxies, water, and everything. And we discover these things today and discover their precision and accuracy day after day. Even the fact that bees are female or something of this kind — things similar to what you have heard.

For example, the development of the fetus and the stages of its growth in detail (23:14). There was a Christian embryologist in the twentieth century named Keith Moore — and he died a Christian — but he said: this description of embryology using the microscope is impossible to have come from the Prophet ﷺ. He said that, and he was a Christian and died a Christian, but nevertheless he acknowledged that it is impossible for this speech to come from an Arab bedouin because I look through a microscope, and the same description found here is the description mentioned in the Qur'an. And he could not have known that. Yes. For example, the Qur'an talks about the expansion of the universe (51:47), and we have discovered this using the Hubble Telescope. And the Qur'an talks about clouds and about their being heavy (13:12). No one would think that clouds are heavy, because if you look at them, you would think they are light. But clouds weigh tons, and the Qur'an described them as heavy clouds (13:12). And you will not find this description in other religious books.

The Qur'an's Descriptions of the Natural World

The Qur'an gives precise descriptions of things in the natural world. Literature describes certain creatures as "light" because they fly in the sky, but the Qur'an provides these descriptions with accuracy. I could continue with everything related to the material world, but beyond that, the Messenger ﷺ spoke about the future and what happens today. He said, for example: "And you will see the barefoot, the naked, the destitute, the shepherds of sheep competing in constructing tall buildings." Where is the tallest building in the world today? Now, in Dubai, yes. And do you know how they were able to build it? Fifty years ago it was desert. They found oil, and after discovering oil, they had money and became capable of constructing buildings. The Messenger ﷺ said: "The earth will produce the best parts of its treasure until wealth becomes abundant among you (the Arabs) and overflows." The Messenger ﷺ spoke about interest and usury, and how interest and usury would spread throughout the world to such an extent that even those who wanted to avoid it would be touched by its dust.

The Impossibility of Usury Without Paper Currency

This would not be possible except with the existence of paper currency, which allows us to lend to a vast number of people. In that time, paper currency did not exist because they dealt with gold and silver. Usury was not widespread, and they were not able to take loans the way it happens today, because it is impossible to print money, lend it, and then demand repayment again. Instead, they needed gold and silver—they had to find it and extract it in order to lend large quantities. This was not possible in the same way and on a scale where it would be impossible for anyone with wealth to avoid usury. I could continue presenting evidence; these are only some examples. The Qur'an spoke about the past and described things not mentioned in the books of the Christians or other religious texts, yet we have discovered their truth today. I will give you one example: The Qur'an spoke about Pharaoh.

The Qur'an's Unique Account of Pharaoh's Divinity Claims

Pharaoh is described in the Christian scriptures, and the interaction between Moses and Pharaoh is mentioned, but there is nowhere in the Christian scriptures that states the Pharaoh of Moses' time claimed divinity. This is not mentioned anywhere in the Christian scriptures—at least not according to what I have read or heard. No, it does not exist. You can search for it and you will not find it. But the Qur'an contains this description and mentions that he claimed divinity. Now we know today that this is fact. It would be impossible for the Messenger Muhammad ﷺ to know this because the hieroglyphic language was dead. The Rosetta Stone was not discovered until 200 years ago, and thanks to the Rosetta Stone, we translated from Demotic to Greek, and thus we were able to read it from hieroglyphic to Demotic to Greek. This way we were able to translate the hieroglyphic language and read what it says in the temple of Abu Simbel in Egypt, for example. The Pharaoh who was in Moses' time, who was Ramses II, was crowned with divinity by Horus and Set—two Egyptian gods—and they made him a god. So he did claim divinity. This was not common before him among the Pharaohs in any way. It was not common for any Pharaoh to claim divinity, but you can see this happening, and the Qur'an mentions these things.

Accurate References to Abraham's People and Their Deities

The Qur'an spoke about Abraham and what his people used to worship, for example, and the gods they used to worship. The Qur'an is very precise. They used to worship the sun, the moon, and a star, which is the planet Venus. And today we know this is correct. The Sumerian language was dead in the time of the Messenger ﷺ, but later it was revived and we discovered a temple called the "Ziggurat of Ur," where we found an artifact showing the names of the gods that were worshipped by the people of Mesopotamia in the time of Abraham. All of this information did not exist because this temple was buried under sand and the language was dead. So the Messenger ﷺ had no way to obtain this information, and it is not found in the previous religious books either.

The Qur'an as Living Miracle

Now, the question is: The Messenger ﷺ described these things from the past and spoke about future things that we see today. He spoke about all these things that describe the natural world, and I am giving you only some examples; I could give more. Not to mention the things the Messenger ﷺ did, which people witnessed. The Qur'an itself is a living miracle that cannot be matched in the Arabic language, and this is a challenge to the people today. For this reason, I say no. It is not true that all religions lack evidence. Rather, the other religions lack evidence, and for that reason they attribute this accusation to all the other religions. But the truth is that Islam is the only religion that possesses objective evidence to prove its divine source. What is my excuse for not following the Messenger ﷺ after all this evidence? How can I insist on disbelief in the truth? I do not know.

The Weight of Truth and the Difficulty of Change

Well, as you said, I know it is difficult to leave something after its falsity has been proven. Everything you have mentioned—but the Hereafter is important. And you want to die upon truth, not upon falsehood. You do not want to be punished in the Hereafter. Rather, you want to die upon goodness. And of course, I perceive sincerity in you, and for that reason my advice to you is: if you see the truth, embrace the truth. And I am not saying you should do this now, but whenever you feel ready. However, you must understand that this is the truth. If this is the truth, then I must follow it. It does not matter what others do or what they will say to me. None of this matters. If this is the truth, then I must follow it simply. I know that what you are saying is logical, and these thoughts have occurred to me during the past few months. They have been with me since November—I mean the internal struggle between what is logical and what is not, and between truth and falsehood. I am married and have children, and we are all Orthodox Christians. Sometimes we speak and argue about these things.

The Coincidence of Finding This Discussion

Believe it or not, the funny thing is that I said: if I had the opportunity to speak with him, I would ask him my questions. And I happened to come across your live broadcast on YouTube, so I decided to enter it today because I had never watched a live broadcast before, and I did not have the opportunity to ask questions or to speak. I know a Muslim, but he changed his religion to Orthodoxy. Is he from Iran? What? Is he from Iran? No, from what country? He is American, but I am not sure where he was born. So how do you know he was Muslim? He told me. I was present when he changed his religion. No, no, you mean when he converted? I do not know; I was not present then. That is what I mean. How do you know he was Muslim in the first place if he is American? Because he was not born here. No, how do you know he was Muslim? That is my question. He told me, and he is someone I trust, so I believed him when he told me that he was. Do you know how many false stories we have exposed as lies? Too many to count. Many people have claimed they were Muslim, and when we ask them simple questions about Islam, I am sure people do this on YouTube in an attempt to turn people away from the religion, and I am sure there are many of them. But he is not a public figure; I know him personally. Yes, I do not know about that specific person, but it is not limited to YouTube alone. They do this even in churches to increase people's faith in the church because they do not have any evidence from their book. So they make statues that cry and bring a person who has had an experience to tell his story and what happened to him in his dream, and his wonderful life story and how Jesus sent him a sign. This is what happens in Christianity—in churches people come and talk about their personal experiences and talk about those things, and some say they were Muslim and so and so. In the Orthodox Church, it is a little different.

The Nature of Orthodox Christian Worship

Well, Orthodox Christianity is ancient Christianity and is not like Protestantism or Catholicism. It is very different. There is no one talking about anything. It is liturgical, and we gather for the liturgy. It is not an opportunity for people to talk or share their stories. We do not have such things. What made you mention that person? And what would that person's background prove, if we assume it? It proves nothing. There is no person you can speak to and ask questions. I know him in my life. I think each person has their own way of thinking. Yes, if it comes to asking questions in general, this live broadcast is always open to anyone who wants to ask questions. There is a broadcast for Muslims and another for non-Muslims. I am always open to people asking their questions, and the Muslim community as well. The mosques are there and open to anyone who wants to ask questions. If they have questions, they will answer your questions with joy, like the imam of the mosque. They will not say to you: do not enter. Rather, they will answer your questions. And regarding support, when someone converts to Islam, we support them. We connect them with Muslims around them in their areas if they exist, or at least online, and they remain always in contact with them, teaching them and answering their questions and teaching them important things. We always do this to the best of our ability. So if you are thinking of entering Islam in the future and this matter is concerning you, know that we will support you. But if you are asking in general—I think I do not know. I need to make sure of what I am going to do. But of course, you must do what is right, and you must search for the truth until you find it. But you must be sure. Do you understand what I mean? Absolutely yes. So I cannot object to what you said, and I will not try. You are welcome to do so. No, no, what you can do is not try to object to it now, and you are not obliged to. But what you can do is: if you have questions about anything, you have my email address, and I will display it or one of the moderators will do so, and I will know about it. I welcome you contacting me by email if you have something specific. Wait, you said? I said: if you have any question about what I said later, after research, and you want more clarification and you want sources or anything related to that, you can send a message via email. This is what I was saying so you can get more clarification on that specific matter, and I welcome that. This is the email address if you can see it on the screen, but in general, everything I said is facts. And for that reason, I welcome the idea of you leaving and coming back because you will realize that they are facts, and then you will realize after that that there is no other option, and that this is the truth. If what I said is correct, does that not mean that Islam is the truth? If what I said is correct, then yes! Yes, then the next step is for you to verify the correctness of what I said. That is all. Yes, and the email? Here: muslimlantern@gmail.com. It is the channel name without "the"—just muslimlantern@gmail.com. Well, just contact me via any social media platform. Just mention that it is you sending the message and any question you have about what I said. And I welcome investigation and research. And I think that this is the best step you can take now. And if you verify the correctness of these things, then you must become Muslim. Alright! Do we agree? It was a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you, and it was a pleasure for me to speak with you as well. You are welcome. Thank you. No problem. I will receive the next person and let you leave. Alright. Goodbye. Goodbye.